2011 Magazine Part 1 2011 Magazine Bodies

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(dramatic music)

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– [Adam] Hey everybody,
Adam from Atlas Gun Works.

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We’re gonna talk about the
history today of 2011 mags,

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and that should help people a little bit

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have an idea of how to
get a system that works.

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The goal here is just for you guys

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to be able to get a system that works.

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The mags are the weak point
in the system, for sure.

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There’s only a couple of people

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making the bodies for the mags.

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And so we got navigating the mags

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is the key to making

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everything better.

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So

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the history of the mags.

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As most of you would know,
the guns had a patent on them,

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so SVI, which is one of
their old style tubes,

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and here’s an STI.

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This is a nine and a 40.

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This is their old style tubes.

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These guys are the only two

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who were making mag tubes
for the longest time,

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basically for the first 20 something,

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25 years of this thing being in existence,

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maybe almost 30 years really.

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But we didn’t have a lot of choices.

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Of the two

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in different calibers

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you had different
advantages or disadvantages.

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So what do we look for

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when we’re trying to put a mag together?

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And then I’ll get back to
the history a little bit.

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But we’re looking for this.

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I’m looking for the mag to, oop.

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I want the mag nice clean
in and out drop free, right?

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These two do that in this gun.

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Now what you got to think about is

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every single grip in every
single gun is different, right?

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So the plastic grips have some variants.

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The PT Evos have a
different angle slightly

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than the regular PTs.

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Sometimes when those guys

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don’t make their mark on
machining a steel grip,

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they’re tighter or looser.

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So for instance, this, I’m sorry,

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this mag right here

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probably fits in 85% of
the guns in this building,

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but there’s probably a handful it doesn’t

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because they’re tighter.

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So there’s tolerances everywhere,

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so that’s one thing we have to look at.

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The other thing we have to look at

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is where these

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mag catch holds, whatever,
indicator lock out hole,

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whatever you want to call
it, where these are drilled.

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So they’re never always the same.

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So these guns are made,

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they’re stamped out and
then put together, welded.

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So this is gonna flow a little bit.

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That’s all done when the sheet is flat,

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it’s not done after the fact.

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So, these are never always perfect.

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And every gun potentially
has that mag catch.

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It could have a variance in it,

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and it could be a variance

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where the mag sits in the gun.

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So we care about how high
these sit in the gun for sure.

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The guns are super sensitive
to how high they fit.

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But anyway, so in the beginning
we just have SV and STI.

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Of the two

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in nine millimeter SV
doesn’t need spacers,

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STI does need spacers.

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So for 40 cal the STI
mags worked pretty well,

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and the SVs were definitely dominant

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in the nine millimeter realm.

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The SVs are a little stiffer
so they’re harder to tune,

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but once you get them
tuned they tend to stay.

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The feed lips and everything,

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everything is a little stiffer,

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a little stronger, a little harder,

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it lasts a little longer.

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Maybe possibly more prone to cracking.

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So these SV old tubes are like dinosaurs.

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They’re super hard to find.

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They’re rare.

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They’re worth a lot of money.

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Guys who have them don’t let go of them.

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So these are not a practical
solution unless you have a set.

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So ignore that those exist at this moment.

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Then SV NewGen comes out.

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And the NewGen mags
are AMB, which is cool,

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but they changed some of
the dimensions up top,

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and it didn’t change how well they worked.

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They feed probably the
best of all the tubes.

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They dimensionally are the most correct

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and they’re probably dimensionally

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the most consistent internally dimensions.

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But, they don’t fit into STI guns well.

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So STI,

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I don’t if it was more SV or STI,

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but somebody made a
change so that these mags

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don’t click into the newer,

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or these mags won’t
click into the new STI,

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or any STI gun really,

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but it’s in particular the new guns.

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So you can’t just buy a set of these

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without doing a relief cut
on the frame of the STI guns.

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So if you have an STI gun,

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the newer style, which
is the last 10 years,

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this is ’17, so from ’08 or ‘9 on,

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these new style.

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And you can tell by they
say Strayer Voigt on them,

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or Voigt and Strayer’s signature,

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yeah, signature, alright.

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They’re stamped with their name.

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The old ones don’t have that,

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and the old ones (mumbles).

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So

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this again, nine millimeter no spacer

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probably beats these and spacer.

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40 we could probably make
either one work well.

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Again, a little tougher, a little harder,

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lasts a little longer.

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So then bring MBX into the mix.

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And MBX does a really nice tube.

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The tubes, the quality of
the tubes is really good.

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MBX has never to date, 2017,

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made a follower that works great.

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So the mags work often quite

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maybe 99% of the time,

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but they have follower problems.

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The STIs

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and the SVIs

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we tend to not use their guns.

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Almost all the competition guys

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end up using different guns.

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So that’s a,

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that’s a thing that
you’ve got to keep in mind

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that we’re gonna put
different guts in these.

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So that kind of comes into play.

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This is an MBX mag.

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The newer,

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he’s changed these twice, at least twice,

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but the newer MBX style mags,

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you can tell because they’re right here,

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let’s see if we can get a
good camera angle on this,

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some light.

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We’ll see here.

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Let’s see if we zoom back.

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We haven’t quite my light on my new …

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That’s probably why you
haven’t seen a ton of videos.

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I haven’t got the light on the new bench

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just figured out yet.

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But right here,

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actually, we’ll do this old school.

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Just put a flashlight over it.

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Let’s see what that does.

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So right here

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there’s no crease right here
in this spot and this spot.

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(mumbles) this flashlight
stays (mumbles) better.

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There we go.

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So right here and here

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on an older style one,

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so here and here, you’re
gonna see a deep crease.

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The Grams followers don’t
work in those older mags.

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And these are hit or miss

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whether they kind of work anyway,

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the Grams setups in there.

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And I have not tried
the Tarans yet, but …

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So good mag body,

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follower system not great.

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But he tried to make the
follower system proprietary.

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So it is not,

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there’s no ideal setup
to date with an MBX tube.

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And they keep making new followers.

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Maybe they’ll get it right.

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Then enter STI with their new mag,

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probably the nicest mag body produced.

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Problem …

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And this one …

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Well, we’ll come back to that.

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Probably the nicest
mag body ever produced,

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dimensions no good.

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So the internal dimensions
are not correct.

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And what we have is when the bullets

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stack in here,

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often the bullets are getting to a spot

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where they’re bound up.

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And you can see how messy
they stack up in here.

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But we get the bullets in a spot

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where they can’t get by each other

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and the follower spring
doesn’t have enough pressure.

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And it happens in these when they’re full

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when you’re at

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20 or 21 rounds.

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And what happens is there’s
not much follower pressure

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pushing up here,

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and when the slide hits it

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the bullet dives into the ramp and stops.

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So the first five rounds out of these

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are often trouble that way.

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So I’ve yet to see …

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They’re right on the edge of
having the dimensions good.

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So what you see with these
new STI mags is that,

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I’ll make up numbers,

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but half of them work
and half of them don’t.

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So, not a risk I’m willing to take.

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But they use a one piece.

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They stamp it out in one piece,

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fold it around, weld it in the back.

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It’s actually,

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that part, they’re having
these made by somebody else,

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that part works well.

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They’re nice like that.

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The external dimensions are nice.

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They drop in and out of
almost every gun perfectly.

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I mean they really …

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That’s dragging on the spring there,

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but yeah.

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And then they’re not super
hard, so they’re easy to tune.

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That means they’re gonna
bend up a little easier,

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but we’re hoping STI gets
their stuff figured out

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and these are viable.

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But in the fall of 2017

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I would run away from those mag tubes.

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I would not run those.

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And everything I’m speaking to here

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is assuming we’re gonna get max capacity,

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140 millimeters or 170 millimeters.

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I haven’t messed with the 120s,

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and I haven’t messed with the STIs

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with their own follower system,

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although I hear it’s having issues, but

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I don’t have any direct
relationship to that.

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But we’re talking about USPSA
or some kind of competition

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and we want to get the max rounds

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in 140 millimeter mag, right,

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so how do we do it?

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So these mags are out

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because they’re dimensionally
unreliable internally.

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So new STI mags are out.

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Can we use an MBX mag?

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Maybe.

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So what I’m seeing with the MBX mags is

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that the body

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is dimensionally okay

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if you have the right follower setup.

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At one point in 2016

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in the middle of the year,

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or spring to middle of the year,

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they had a great follower system.

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It worked really well.

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They’ve changed that two
or three times since then,

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and the new system I have not
seen to be super reliable.

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The biggest problems with
these mags and the setup

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is that they’re like 99.5% reliable,

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so you might only,

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or 99.9,

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you might only ditch,

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or 999, whatever the number ends up,

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it might only fail once in a thousand.

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But you’re getting the same
problem you’re having here.

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The bullets are stacking up a little funny

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and every now and then one just,

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we don’t have enough spring pressure

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and we get one that hits a ramp and stops

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because the bullet wasn’t
sitting up the way it needs to.

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What we need is when that
slide comes over this thing

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we need this bullet to not dive terribly.

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They’re gonna dive some.

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When that slide catches
that like that it’s going,

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I mean it’s nasty momentum.

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I really can’t reproduce it here, but

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there’s a little bit of dip
and there’s some front dive.

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But, we need that follower
to keep the pressure up.

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So,

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I would tell you that for the most part

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the only way that we’re
getting any success with these

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is to run the newer ones
with the Grams followers.

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And if you have older MBX mags …

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The follower and the
tube are a system, right?

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So the old, whatever it is,

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with any of these, but
especially with the MBX,

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if you have a follower,

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that follower and that tube are a pair.

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I would always keep those together

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and just change the springs.

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If you’re running the actual MBX mags

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and his springs,

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his springs last half as
long as everyone else’s.

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So I normally change my springs

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on a Grams or a Taran setup twice a year.

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I would change it like in the
spring coming into the season,

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so like April before the majors start,

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and then I would change it once mid season

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before the second set of majors, like in

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August or July,

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and that’s when I do
the bulk of my shooting.

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And then I’d ride that one
right to the end of the year.

00:11:32:16 00:11:35:02
So two times a year I’m changing.

00:11:35:02 00:11:39:01
On these you’re probably
doing it four times,

00:11:39:01 00:11:40:24
and you’ve got to mess with the followers.

00:11:40:24 00:11:43:04
There’s a lot of micro tuning.

00:11:43:04 00:11:46:09
And again, you see guys
who swear these work,

00:11:46:09 00:11:49:01
and those are the guys
who every now and then

00:11:49:01 00:11:51:01
have to rack one out of the gun,

00:11:51:01 00:11:53:14
and that was probably the mag.

00:11:54:18 00:11:56:19
It took awhile for us to see all that,

00:11:56:19 00:12:01:05
but that’s what all the
evidence is pointing to

00:12:01:05 00:12:03:12
is that the failure
rate is just really low

00:12:03:12 00:12:05:15
but it’s still a failure rate.

00:12:05:15 00:12:06:16
But these fit in the guns,

00:12:06:16 00:12:08:01
nice drop out, nice,

00:12:08:01 00:12:08:21
you know, they have a nice polish.

00:12:08:21 00:12:10:10
The witness holes are in the right spot.

00:12:10:10 00:12:11:12
That’s great.

00:12:11:12 00:12:14:17
So what are our real choices?

00:12:14:17 00:12:16:23
The old STI mags they
are not making anymore,

00:12:16:23 00:12:19:05
but there are lots and lots out there.

00:12:19:05 00:12:21:09
These are great in 40 cal.

00:12:22:10 00:12:23:05
Because there’s no spacer

00:12:23:05 00:12:25:20
we don’t have to worry about
any of the spacer nonsense.

00:12:25:20 00:12:29:01
Spacers are a pain in the
ass and not really worth it.

00:12:29:01 00:12:32:01
So if you’ve got old set of 40s,

00:12:32:01 00:12:33:17
these are better than the new ones by far.

00:12:33:17 00:12:38:03
I know they don’t look
as cool, but keep them.

00:12:38:03 00:12:40:01
And even if you want to
run them in nine millimeter

00:12:40:01 00:12:42:10
you can run them with spacers.

00:12:42:10 00:12:43:08
It’s a viable option.

00:12:43:08 00:12:46:07
These have been around for 20
something years and they work,

00:12:46:07 00:12:47:03
and we know it.

00:12:47:03 00:12:49:19
And sometimes the tubes
are really bashed up

00:12:49:19 00:12:52:14
and you’ve got to do work to them,

00:12:52:14 00:12:54:07
but once you get them
there they’re usually good,

00:12:54:07 00:12:55:19
and the only difference between

00:12:55:19 00:12:58:23
once you get these running
in 40 and an SV tube

00:12:58:23 00:13:01:16
is that you’re gonna get a
little more flex and bend quickly

00:13:01:16 00:13:02:16
in your feed lips.

00:13:02:16 00:13:05:08
But once you get that squared
out or you check that,

00:13:05:08 00:13:08:21
and you should be checking
that anyway, then life is good.

00:13:08:21 00:13:09:18
So we can’t get these.

00:13:09:18 00:13:12:09
This is not a going forward thing.

00:13:12:09 00:13:13:19
So where are we left with?

00:13:13:19 00:13:16:02
We’re left with the SV tubes.

00:13:16:02 00:13:19:08
Again, probably dimensionally
internally the best tubes.

00:13:19:08 00:13:23:06
External dimensions they
sometimes are hit or miss.

00:13:23:06 00:13:26:12
You can quite often get one of these,

00:13:26:12 00:13:27:08
yeah, this one will do it.

00:13:27:08 00:13:28:22
This one doesn’t even,

00:13:28:22 00:13:30:05
it won’t really click into,

00:13:30:05 00:13:32:03
I’ve got to push it to
get it in the gun, right?

00:13:32:03 00:13:34:18
And sometimes they won’t
even come in or out.

00:13:34:18 00:13:36:11
When you push it in
they’re way stuck in here.

00:13:36:11 00:13:38:12
Front to back they’re often back,

00:13:38:12 00:13:39:17
so that’s a problem.

00:13:39:17 00:13:42:16
There’s usually a big bur
right here you’ve to clear out.

00:13:42:16 00:13:44:10
This one has still got it.

00:13:44:10 00:13:46:01
There’s a, you’re probably
not gonna see that real well,

00:13:46:01 00:13:47:08
but there’s a big bur right there.

00:13:47:08 00:13:49:00
That always needs to get cleaned out.

00:13:49:00 00:13:51:12
The feed lips are hard to adjust,

00:13:51:12 00:13:52:18
because they’re so hard,

00:13:52:18 00:13:54:23
and if you go too far it’s
really hard to bring them back.

00:13:54:23 00:13:56:21
So there’s some work to be done there.

00:13:56:21 00:13:58:03
They don’t come with witness holes.

00:13:58:03 00:13:59:22
This one we already drilled.

00:13:59:22 00:14:03:08
And then often these phalanges down here

00:14:03:08 00:14:05:12
are pointed downward kind of,

00:14:05:12 00:14:08:14
so it lets your base pad flop around.

00:14:10:05 00:14:11:01
And

00:14:11:25 00:14:14:15
when your base pad flops around like this

00:14:14:15 00:14:17:04
you often with a spring
don’t fit in the gauge.

00:14:17:04 00:14:18:11
So you’ve got to bend these up

00:14:18:11 00:14:19:23
so that this sits on there nice and tight

00:14:19:23 00:14:21:20
and you fit in the gauge.

00:14:21:20 00:14:23:15
And that’s something to be
checking all the time with these

00:14:23:15 00:14:26:21
because they’re right on the line.

00:14:26:21 00:14:29:21
So, there’s a bunch of work to do to these

00:14:29:21 00:14:30:16
to get them to work,

00:14:30:16 00:14:32:06
but once you do …

00:14:33:06 00:14:36:01
You know, I say that this
thing is 99% or whatever,

00:14:36:01 00:14:39:19
and this one all tuned up, the
older ones, are probably 100,

00:14:39:19 00:14:42:02
and this thing is like 50%, right?

00:14:42:02 00:14:44:07
So once you’ve get these …

00:14:44:07 00:14:46:00
And this is, again, not a viable option,

00:14:46:00 00:14:49:13
99 and not being able to get
a follower system that works

00:14:49:13 00:14:53:04
not really a viable option
to me at this point.

00:14:53:04 00:14:54:14
And some of them work better than others,

00:14:54:14 00:14:56:10
but just in as a group

00:14:57:10 00:14:59:20
we can’t have that 1% failure rate.

00:14:59:20 00:15:02:19
These once you get them set

00:15:02:19 00:15:04:08
they just go, they work.

00:15:04:08 00:15:05:17
So they’re awful,

00:15:05:17 00:15:06:22
they’re overpriced, they’re expensive,

00:15:06:22 00:15:08:22
they’re awful to work with
like getting them set up,

00:15:08:22 00:15:12:02
but once you do you’ve got the real deal.

00:15:12:02 00:15:14:14
So that’s the direction we’re at now.

00:15:14:14 00:15:17:17
Hopefully there’s a better
follower system here soon.

00:15:17:17 00:15:19:20
Hopefully STI fixes their dimensions

00:15:19:20 00:15:21:18
on the internal part of the tube.

00:15:21:18 00:15:23:17
And maybe we’ll get a whole new player.

00:15:23:17 00:15:26:03
There’s some foreign folks
who make the tubes and stuff,

00:15:26:03 00:15:27:24
but none of them are a viable option.

00:15:27:24 00:15:29:16
They’re not very consistent.

00:15:29:16 00:15:32:18
So I’m gonna do a video later next week

00:15:32:18 00:15:36:18
that shows every step to
us tuning one of these.

00:15:37:21 00:15:39:19
And I’ll show all the nasty,

00:15:39:19 00:15:41:15
we’ll find some nasty ones
that don’t fit in guns

00:15:41:15 00:15:43:08
and we’ll show you how to do all that

00:15:43:08 00:15:46:07
so you can just build
your own killer tubes.

00:15:46:07 00:15:49:01
(dramatic music)

<end subtitles>

By | 2017-09-04T21:36:03+00:00 September 4th, 2017|Uncategorized|0 Comments

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